Raiding, progress and wanting to progress.

[DamageCase]

Ok, I really have to get this of my chest.

What is wrong with you people?
Everytime I am in ZG with the guild it seems to me as we are raiding a lvl 20 instance. At least you give me that impression since I do not see the singlest drop of attention in there.
In the last 7 or 8 raids how far have we progressed? Well one full whole boss and that is with a lot of luck.
But instead of people focussing, thinking and discussing how we can improve that I see people fooling arround, yelling, chatting, afk-ing before a boss fight, coming online whenever people feel to even though they signed up.
How do you think you will ever make progress that way?

I exploded a bit in the raid and the answer I get is "we wanna have 5 mins of fun" well that "fun" lasted 3 full hours. Instead of typing you could pull another pack, instead of afking you can wait after the bosskill when loot is handed out, instead of joking arround you could ask what we can do to do it better next pull.

If fun means going into a instance and just fool arround, ok that's not my fun.
I have fun outside the raids, in there I want to kill and loot, as much, as efficient and as fast as we can in those three hours.
When we are done in there I'm up for all kinds of fun, in there all that there is asked is three hours of attention out of the god knows how many hours you are online in the game.


For me personally there is not a lot to gain in ZG, I want the enchant and after that I want a drop from Jindo and Hakkar, well that is never ever going to happen before Burning Crusade.
So I'm there only to help the guild out because I love the Dread Lords, all I get in return for that is a lot of annoyance and a hefty repairbill, I'm through with that tbh

Good luck with the raids, I'm not gonna join for a while.

[cogar]

Well dude im guilty of /ying, and for that i apologise.

I know you got mad tonight, and thats not cool, instead of saying "Blow raiding with DL" for a while, lets sort things out.

We Have improved, thats a fact. instead of walking away we just need to focus a little but not raid in complete silence. we have to find a happy medium. One bad raid shouldn't shy you away from it. We should sit back and place some strict guidelines and rules to make raiding FUN and Efficient and it can be done

What i propose is we sign up for next week and we Just get in there and Kick ass, no talking, no messing we focus and get the job done.

one more try DC, just relax and think on it bro

Peace out

Cogar

[seamless]

yeah i was a bit of a gimp tonight to be honest, if it really annoys you that much then i'll stop.

[Chelidda]

I don't think anyone leaving is the solution, we need all the people we can get there anyway. That is, IF they are up to actually concentrating and following the leader's every order for 3 hours. This is the only way to make progress in a raid, you can chat any other time of the day, any other day of the week. Yeah, you CAN chat in ZG too, but not as long as we're still struggling in there!

[Juggernaught]

I decided to sleep on it before posting here, but I feel that I really should add to DC's comments.

Firstly I'd like to say that we all graciously understand that a some of the group have little/no experience of much beyond UBRS and that's cool (even DC was at that stage at one point). There is no issue with players experience here, and I don’t want anybody to think that there is.

Our main problem lies with some not appreciating or realising that there is a HUGE increase in difficulty from UBRS to ZG, and that this increase in difficulty requires an equal increase in concentration and focus on your part. 5/10 man guild runs are fun. You can do UBRS with your eyes closed, chat away, and have a bit of a laff while you're doing it. Now welcome to ZG.

I really can't stress this enough; End game raiding requires focus, dedication, and hard work. If that's something you're not prepared to give then end-game raiding is not for you, no matter how much you want it to be.

On a personal note; (and anyone who's ever lead a 20+ man raid will know where I'm coming from) - It takes all of my time from when I log on at 6.30 until the raid ends to coordinate us all through ZG. I have no time when I'm not franticly typing (you may have noticed the numerous typos in my messages)
I have at least 3 separate /w's going on constantly throughout the night, I'm typing instructions in raid chat, handling invites, distributing loot, assigning targets, making decisions, and sometimes I even get to shoot something.
But this isn't my first time running a group through ZG and I knew what I was getting into before I started this, so I'm not after sympathy here. But please have a little appreciation of the amount of work I'm doing throughout the entire raid; Those times while you're stood around waiting before a boss fight, well I'm not exactly off making a d**n coffee. I'm organising 18 other people and making sure everyone is aware of what they need to do. So I DO NOT appreciate snide remarks about how you're bored because you've been waiting around.
And don't think that I'm purposely ignoring anyone's comments or requests. I really do try to answer everything I'm asked, but I'm limited to how much I can do, so sometimes I miss things (especially when each line in raid chat is followed by 10 lines of garbage /say), and sometimes I have to priorotise other issues over trivial requests. Like I said this isn't a UBRS run.

A final point is that 19 other people have given up their night to do this raid. The raid time is 8pm to 11pm game time. Everybody is expected to be there, ready to pull at 8, and expected to stay to the bitter end. If this is not acceptable, please don't sign up. Obviously, people will be late or have to leave early sometimes, and that's fine as long as you let me know (which you all do anyway).

So let’s learn from last night because we're on triple secret probation now. If we don't sharpen up I will not lead another like it. So take in what I've said above, and what some of the experienced raiders in the group last night were saying, and let's start making a dent in ZG, rather than Grums armour...

Oh, and finally: No, I do not know how many points you have!!!! (please be aware of your own dkp score before we start, it only takes an Alt+tab and 10 seconds to check on the site - that's 5 /w's I can do without)

[?orky]

I got mad... NO I got pissed.. No wait a sec I got really sad... last night

I have a hard time in my life at the moment and I thought that playing wow with people and having fun Would help me But I guess I was wrong.. I look at Dread Lords as my family a family I chose because the would understand that sometimes you need a helping hand or a laugh or...

I said something in GC under the raid yes and I wont say Im sorry for that because I care... belive it or not... I hate to see people beeing used or neglected and Im sorry but I feel that Dustin has been... he JUMPS for DL... and you have not seen him say no to something and if he has its often because I told him he couldnt or didnt have the time... Now he want something back and all he get is empty prommises...

Back to last night....

after what I said in GC I was quiret most of the raid up till Mandokir, because as I /w jug I have some reallife things that I need to take hand on but beeing in there at the same time is just nice to me and mean alot to me..

then some might say if you cant give yourself 110% dont come, but I did because I needed that laugh.. as it is now I dont feel that you are allowed to have a bad day... DC Im sorry but you do MC too and Im sure you have different channels for /w /ra and so on and its really handy if you get tired of blabbering... if it gets to much then instead of exploding /w the ppl in a nice way saying plz do you mind to cut down on the chatting part... I felt a bit you lashed out at me mabye Im wrong but I do take manythings way to personal at the moment

And yes Jugg I said that I feel you have ignored what I have tried to say or suggest, I can understand that you feel its a great deal of stress to manage 19 ppl (just be happy its not 19 of me ) but why dont you point out helpers?? Im sure there are ppl in guild in raid that would love to help you sort out loot and stuff like that..

Well that was a loooong answer...
funny enough that I have had the thought Im not cut out for end game raids... the sad part is I really like them..

/hugs a very tired of life Freja

[deathstare]

brief and just a couple of points....
I love DL and it is a very nice guild to be in but feel that yesterday should be dealth with fast. I have just binned a guild with a lot of friends because of politics and issues that blew up and once blown up weren't handled correctly.

My ideas are simple i think...and take them or leave them but having done ZG plenty might help... (and this is absolutely NO criticism of Jugg and his good RL skills)

Assign a marker... (e.g. me to mark all targets)
Assign a master looter (e.g. Kem)
Assign 2 helpers ( they can help the new people with tactics and what to do next etc)
Use /RW for simple comms...Not used enough i think
Create a couple of Channels for talk (1 for Chat and maybe another) Join if u want too
And Disable Raid Chat constantly...

As time goes by the chit chat will go to whispers...I used to love my raids because we all knew what we were doing...Was it easy...hell NO, but boy did we get good...

Oh and please remember that when i go to work as u all do or college or school or whatever, the last thing i want to do is work out what to post up here...

Lets feel the love, get a bud and a smoke and kick Mandis arse...

Word

DS

[Juggernaught]

Sounds good. If you're happy to do targeting the job's yours, and we can audtion for ML before we start next week.

Regarding boss fights, chat, and afk-ing. I really don't think it's too much to ask that at boss fights everybody cuts out the silly chat for 10 minutes, doesn't go afk, and focuses on the reason they're there - to kill the boss and get epic loot.

It's such a small thing, but happened with such infuriating frequency last week that it really did jar me off.

The silly chat is never really a problem during trash mobs to be honest, especially as we seem to be able to do that quite well now (although there's always room for improvement).

So next week, how about we pick up again, enjoy it, chat away, but with the understanding that before and during a boss fight we cut out all non-essential chat and focus for 10 minutes?